Grivot at TWS

Discussion in 'UK Wine Forum' started by Tom Shelley, Jul 28, 2020 at 5:59 PM.

  1. I came to burgundy rather late, so my cellar is rather lacking in pre 2009 red burgundy, I pick up oddments now and then. TWS have a couple of Grivot 2004’s at relatively affordable pricing (as red burgundy goes) the Clos Vougeot at £69 and the NSG Pruliers at £59. Sadly the internet is lacking recent tasting notes, I was wondering if anyone on the forum had any recent experience with these wines ?

    I know 2004 was a challenge, but there has been a recent theme that they are in a better place than might have been expected a few years ago.
  2. I haven't tasted these, Tom. When 04s are good they can be quite ravishing; if they are not the WS guarantee of satisfaction could prove particularly useful.
  3. I don't know those particular wines, Tom, but I have some Grivot Echezeaux 2004 and it's very good.
    Antoine Singer likes this.
  4. Compared to current release pricing they’re a steal. I’ve not tried any Grivot 04’s but if you can afford to I think they’re worth a try, if you do please report back
  5. S

    So-so review for the CdV on a US subscription website, no mention of Pruliers.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020 at 5:44 PM
  6. Tom, 2004 = Avoid. That's despite any 'recent themes', unless prepared for disappointment. Same applies to 2011.
  7. As noted above however TWS guarantee is very good. They reimbursed me today for my faulty Boillot Genevrieres 2010 without any difficulty. I know 2004 is a lottery but what isn’t in Burgundy? The CV at that price should be a good punt. What is there to lose? If it smells and tastes like blended ladybirds send TWS an email to that effect. If it’s a hidden gem, send me a PM then post a TN on here!
  8. I had a pretty grumpy bottle of the Grivot CV 3 years or so ago - not as green as some but harsh and quite raw in my very vague memory.

    I tend to struggle badly with 04 reds but quite like the 11s (small sample size in both cases, but 11 Fourrier Gevrey VV, yuuuuummmm, 04 Mugneret-Gibourg Fuesselotes, not so much).

    Love both vintages for whites and don't notice any ladybird-esque tones on those.

    I have no view at all on all those theories, although I did once accidentally crush a ladybird - which made me sad as they are very nice - and there was a remarkably strong green pepper/coal tar soap smell...
  9. I have enjoyed the Echezeaux very much (much better than a B Clair clos de beze from a good year next table in a bring your own restaurant), much less so the Vougeot (but this was a few years ago)
  10. Hard to tell as I haven't tasted these (they are way beyond my upper price limit :() but when you look at the prices of the other Grivot wines, they must be priced at that level for a reason. It could be that they are not shifting because of the vintage reputation. If they were brilliant wines, I'm sure they would have all gone by now, and probably wouldn't have been priced at that level. Probably worth giving them a call to discuss the wines as the TNs are not very forthcoming. Given the early characteristics of the vintage though, and you have the cash to burn, it may be prudent to buy a couple and 'lose' them for 15-20 years? I'd probably do that (if I was 20 years younger of course).
  11. Grivot's wines are now very expensive because he charges a lot for them and wishes always to charge more, it seemingly being a matter of pride. This was not so much the case 15 years ago. I don't think £69 for the 04 Clos Vougeot is any kind of bargain at all even if succeeding vintages are far more costly.
    Ian Hampsted likes this.
  12. Isn't this true of many producers in Vosne, Chambolle, Gevrey ... ?

    Grivot hasn't been that aggressive in increasing prices (cf the near tripling by Claude Dugat for the 2000 vintage, or the recent hikes of Perrot-Minot).

    Fwiw, the WS price for the 2015 is rather high at £220: Seckford's list it at £125 IB (or about £153 DP).
    At Seckford's price, Grivot's CV seems to be priced equivalently to quite a few competitors.

    If we take generic Wine Searcher prices for various 2015 CV's (the ones that pop-up on the iphone when you search for 2015 Clos Vougeot):

    Leroy £2707
    Ch de la Tour Hommage £600
    Mugneret-Gibourg £592
    Prieure Roch £549
    Meo-Camuzet £218
    d'Eugenie £204
    Anne Gros £177
    Drouhin £161
    Hudelot-Noellat £154
    Grivot £153
    Ch de la Tour VV £152
    Arnoux-Lachaux £152

    As for 2004 Grivot, Jasper liked the Richebourg 2004 in a review (95) and BH less so (91) at the same 2015 tasting. I would be even lower than BH around the same time, but the bottle I tried at a Richebourg dinner may have been slightly compromised or otherwise imperfect. The most recent BH review is for the Echezeaux dated 1 Sep 2019, scoring 88/100. The danger for Grivot at this time is being overly structured ... with the question being when if ever will there be resolution whilst the fruit is still left.

    My own take on Grivot is that the style has improved so much in recent years (vg, say, 2009 onwards) and I like the wines a lot more than previously - cf Faiveley, Arnoux-Lachaux, Perrot-Minot, ...
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020 at 2:13 PM
    Adam Bruntlett likes this.
  13. Some of those are secondary market prices, Paul, whereas the Grivot now goes for slightly less than its original price, as is so often the case. It's certainly true that others have caught up, Clos Vougeot prices having only got to GC levels quite recently, but he was an early and conscious inflater this millennium. Nothing wrong with that, of course, purchase is not compulsory.
  14. I was going to say something similar - e.g. I own Pruliers 02 and 15 and there's really no comparison even though both vintages are well regarded.

    I suspect £69 is about fair (in the context of Burgundy pricing). I've enjoyed most 2004s I've tried and wouldn't let the vintage per se put me off.
  15. Yep, that was 40% more than Engel - from memory - though about the same as Mugneret-Gibourg...
  16. Whilst René Engel's wines were very smart, the real reason I purchased them was the VFM provided. Similarly with Clos des Lambrays.
    Nowadays, I have to relentlessly search for reasonabley priced (in relative terms) high end red Burgundy. It's a trying task.
    Did buy some Grivot Beaux Monts last year, though. Could flip it for 50% the next day, which sums up the state of the market.
    Intrigued to see plenty of Michel Bouzereau today. I still reckon a hard rain is a-gonna fall.
    Nigel Palesford likes this.
  17. Are these at softer prices already, or is your impression that the increased volume won't shift unless prices start to drop? I checked the price of 2016 Caillerets (a wine I very much enjoyed at a tasting last year) and it's still over £800/6...
  18. Nick, I don't think so, but, I am unsure. The MB P-M Caillerets '18 was a lot cheaper, IIRC.
  19. iirc Engel and Grivot were about the same price twenty years ago with Cathiard a little bit more.

    BBR ep
    2001 Grivot/Cathiard

    Vosne 174.96/189.36
    Engel not in the brochure but im sure it was at tasting at 180 or so.

    Grivot Clos de Vougeot 408

    2004 Vosne/CdV
    Engel 240/498
    Grivot 198/480
    Cathiard 264

    So Grivot’s price inflation hadnt hit the stratosphere by then but Cathiard was already launching into orbit.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020 at 10:03 PM
  20. Perhaps Grivot was being more selective at that time, Gareth. I well remember my 3x1999 Richebourg arriving in 2001 - I hadn't asked the price (that was a different world, eh?) but they had increased by about 50% vs the 1998s which were still on the shelves (Switzerland). Had to bite my lip as there was plenty of smart gear in that parcel - the Mugnier Amoureuses and Jadot Bèze were relative peanuts vs those Grivots - which I've still not tested...
    Adrian Wood and Alex Jagger like this.
  21. You won't be disappointed, Bill. We had the Grivot 99 Riche at Jordi's Richebourg and Grouse dinner at The Square...stunning...

    Dark-toned, powerful and with very deep, luxurious fruit tones. Palate is mineral, tannic and has great line. Gives the sensation of a wine that's aloof, majestic and immoveable. Intense and taut with great volume and a seam of minerality shot through its middle. Outstanding. 19/20.
    billnanson and Alex Jagger like this.
  22. Grivot's wines are expensive and I don't think I've ever had one. Is it the case though, that Grivot's prices have increased to match the level they were reaching on the secondary market? Isn't this what happened with Fourrier?
  23. Not at Grivot, David, the Richebourg was fetching vast sums on the secondary market but not the other wines. Indeed at release they are now mostly priced above their resale value.
  24. Thanks Matthew.
    I tasted the 1999 at the domaine about 4 years ago - it was surly and tannic - for that reason, I've left them alone. Will open a 96 next weekend though...
  25. I have the awful feeling that now is not the time, Bill, though there's only one way of finding out.

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