NWR General Brexit Debate

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There would be more disgraceful posts by way of balance about The Labour Party and Corbyn ... but there is nothing to add and further ridicule would be akin to fox hunting to which we await under the back to the good old days regime ...
 
Back to Brexit ... on BBC Question Time of 30 June 2016 Russell Kane said:

There is no one in my family who did not vote Brexit. I can tell you now ... on the day of the vote members of my family [in Essex] danced and sang: "They're going home! They're going home! "

How does this sentiment, if indeed as I imagine nationwide, square with politicians saying that those EU citizens in this country can stay in the UK?

10:45 ++

 
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Mark Crann said:
Wow!

Nearly every one of the last 15 posts is overtly party political, and pretty personal as well. You may think that just being rude about all or some aspects of the whole Tory mindset, or of the leader's election procedure, is not party political, but actually it is! (For the record, I don't like some of it either, but that is irrelevant to my point.)

This is no longer a thread about Brexit, but just an opportunity for people to give vent to their political prejudices.

Enough!

Tom, please shut this thread down. It is not fair when those of us of a different, or more nuanced, persuasion hold back, whilst these very biased and bigoted posts hold sway. I have come to hate the way this thread has been compromised. I doubt I am alone.
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Mark, with all due respect that is absurd. You seem to be implying that there is no political aspect to the crisis in which we now find ourselves. There was indeed a good argument for not allowing this thread but having allowed it in the first place it is perfectly reasonable to talk about the consequences of this devastating impasse and I can't begin to see how that can be done without discussing the current leaderships(or lack of) of our political parties. FWIW I would be very surprised indeed if you were genuinely sanguine about the current situation but we cannot say we weren't warned, however ineptly.
I'm sure many of us would be fascinated to know your thoughts as a leave voter on what should and might happen now. The leaders of the leave campaign clearly had no expectation of winning and hadn't thought beyond June 23rd, but possibly some of its supporters had.
 
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The same system is how we ended up with one Gordon Brown as our PM and I'm pretty certain that many of those who voted in TB would have thought twice about voting in GB in a General election. In fact IIRC there was not even a contest but GB was simply handed the reins, which is even less democratic.

As an addendum to my emoticon post above I should have said (now edited) that it is simply the colours of the various political parties that correspond to each one, as opposed to representing my views on any of the politics of any of them!
 
I second Mark's call to shut the thread down. As interested as I am in the future leaders of both our major parties this thread has deviated well away from its original title.
 
I remember when I was very young I attended a SWP meeting before I was warned not to again by a family friend at the top of one of the security services. Their ethos was if you are not for us you are against us - a black and white choice. While I believe they and other similar parties have something to offer, their vision of the world as - you are for me so good or against me so bad - is a bedrock of this thread and much social media. The idea that the other man may have a view which is different to yours but which can be respected seems a thing of the past.

The vote has been taken on Brexit and until we have another one on the terms of exit which any sensible government would give I see no point in trying to tie any political event to the topic. By all means start a political thread and we can converse there if we want to. For the record I am a Theresa May and Dan Jarvis man.
 
Do you mean that the security services think that if you are not for us you are against us, Bill, or the SWP?
My view is that no one is compelled either to read or to participate in this thread-Theresa May seems the least bad choice, a bar that is practically on the floor, but who is Dan Jarvis? that he was in the army seems the only reason that he has been suggested as leadership material.
 
The SWP.

That is his advantage he is to some extent a clean sheet, not poison to most old Labour voters but present members will probably only vote for Corbyn which is a disaster for the party.
 
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charlestaylor said:
I have to say I hope she wins. I would like to see both parties destroyed by their ideologically pure core support, enabling the development of some new, confident, centrists.
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Ditto Charles. Wide-eyed and bushy-tailed though I may be, I'd imagine much more than 50% of the population, in peaceful times (so not at the mo) would fit your profile below. This vote is diluted across “Labour”, “Conservative” et al, and everyone gets what no-one wants. Worse, false power is lent to these strange old-fashioned Left/Right ideas, hamstringing (probably not a verb) the elected centrist government. Everyone gets fed up after 5 years, the other side’s voted in, and the NHS gets reformed at massive expense. Again.


No wonder a Farage can come along and shake things up. Although I’m no fan, his Westminster bubble / political elite thing is echoing everywhere and needs to be addressed pronto - more politicians from the "real world". I didn't see Brexit coming, but then I’m not representing millions of people; David Cameron should have, and either prepared for failure or not had the Referendum in the first place.


charlestaylor said:
I'm a middle of the road, economically mildly right, socially pretty liberal: who? Really, who?


That set of views is hardly unusual, but it is utterly without representation.
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Bill Marks said:
The idea that the other man may have a view which is different to yours but which can be respected seems a thing of the past.
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Surely not Bill. If so, this is a massive failure of education and media, and hence politics.

I'm fascinated by this psychologial aspect to politics, and coming hard and fast to a decision which is then defended sounds to me very instinctual, not rational (gut rather than head). With the greatest of respect to anyone reading, Reason would surely weigh both sides and come down (possibly with heavy heart) on one side or the other? Respect for the other view is automatic if you do this, as you've tried it on for size.

I guess most would say that they haven't time to spend in looking up both sides and weighing options, but I wonder why not, I really do. Perhaps we're all working too hard for things we don't need.
 
I have certainly considered both options, Rob. Usually when one does that one realises that one has to choose the least bad option and that things are not as clear as all that. On this occasion, though, there is only one right side, however hard I might try to see the other point of view. Of course there are aspects of the other side which deserve full consideration and attention but in this case it makes the conclusion not even slightly more difficult.
 
On a more wine related note, it's looking like next year's burgundy campaign could be pretty brutal. Between the FX hit on sterling and producers seeking to recoup in the 2015 vintage what they know they've lost on the 16 vintage already due to the inclement weather, we could be looking at 30% plus jumps...
 
Thom Blach said:
The intriguing prospect to me is that of a collapse in property prices, which is exactly what the nation needs in so many ways though the price will be very heavy.
Most modestly well to do people may be quite a bit poorer as a result of this process though that is not necessarily a complete disaster.
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Why or how will the price be very heavy?
How will modestly well to do people be quite a bit poorer?
Will they have less spending power in some way?
 
Two weeks on, and the pain doesn't go away. This is a bereavement. My life and identity as a Brit and European has been ripped away from me. All my plans for my retirement thrown on the scrap heap, all these years back here wasted. And greater even than that, I feel that everything I have stood for and valued - summed up as inclusiveness and an outward-looking view of the world - has been discarded without a thought. I am marooned, stateless and a foreigner in what is supposedly my own country. Britain is a hostile place. It is absurd, farcical, and the feeling of anger and impotence does not go away, or even lessen. That is why I want to have NOTHING to do with anyone who voted Leave, ever again, whatever their reasons - in the end, you voted with the narrow-minded racists and gave them the support and justification for their vile prejudice. Take responsibility for the increase in racist attacks. You voted with the enemy, ergo you are the enemy.
 
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All,

This post has been reported, not for the first time. Whilst I explained my reasons for letting it run, I do now think it is time to close it down. The Brexit vote is over and interested parties have had over two weeks to make their thoughts and feelings known in this thread. I am now concerned that this single exception I made to our 'no politics' rule is running on into all sorts of other political areas, prompted by Brexit perhaps, but not actually about Brexit (leadership elections, etc.)

There are some who will doubtless say the huge political aftermath of the vote still needs to be discussed. I don't disagree, but the forum's 'no politics' rule is understood by all, and it is fairer on the entire community that such discussion does not happen here.

So I am going to shut it down by close of play today.
 
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Aw, Tom, just as I was beginning to engage with and understand politics a bit better!

Fully support your decision and apols if anthing I've written has upset anyone - it was all done (despite the apparent confidence of my words sometimes) in the spirit of open-minded enquiry - thanks all for a fascinating debate and here's to it all working out.
 
Aha, this gives me the chance (Tom's post about shutting it down, not mark's, or Joel's) to use the remaining emoticons.

So, for allowing us to discuss it Tom gets :cool:

Most of us managed to behave ourselves ;)

To those that didn't I'm sure we can all forgive an :oops:

Now we can get back to the serious matter of arguing about which vintage of what is best with which food :)

(PS, one answer will almost without fail be Alsace Pinot Gris :p)
 
Mark Temple said:
Two weeks on, and the pain doesn't go away. This is a bereavement. My life and identity as a Brit and European has been ripped away from me. All my plans for my retirement thrown on the scrap heap, all these years back here wasted. And greater even than that, I feel that everything I have stood for and valued - summed up as inclusiveness and an outward-looking view of the world - has been discarded without a thought. I am marooned, stateless and a foreigner in what is supposedly my own country. Britain is a hostile place. It is absurd, farcical, and the feeling of anger and impotence does not go away, or even lessen. That is why I want have NOTHING to do with anyone who voted Leave, ever again, whatever their reasons - in the end, you voted with the narrow-minded racists and gave them the support and justification for their vile prejudice. Take responsibility for the increase in racist attacks. You voted with the enemy, ergo you are the enemy.
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Tend to agree with that Mark. It's funny, but on this Forum it is obvious people have different views. I've spent my life around people of all political persuasions. It's something you live with. But this whole referendum has opened a can of worms.There are people out there who actually feel outright hostility to members of my family, and there are people out there who think "we won so you 48% of those who voted can go and "suck on it" or "keep sobbing" as has been said to me. This is why I wholly agree with Tom closing the thread. Because it's just not possible (and lord I've tried) to keep away from this thread. Because I believe in equality, justice, fairness and decency and I just have to stand up for what I believe in. Anyone who supports those politicians who fan the flames of anti-immigrant sentiment should not be allowed to go unchallenged and I find it impossible not to do so here. Thank you Tom for taking away this painful, septic, sore.
 
Mark Temple said:
Two weeks on, and the pain doesn't go away. This is a bereavement. My life and identity as a Brit and European has been ripped away from me. All my plans for my retirement thrown on the scrap heap, all these years back here wasted. And greater even than that, I feel that everything I have stood for and valued - summed up as inclusiveness and an outward-looking view of the world - has been discarded without a thought. I am marooned, stateless and a foreigner in what is supposedly my own country. Britain is a hostile place. It is absurd, farcical, and the feeling of anger and impotence does not go away, or even lessen. That is why I want have NOTHING to do with anyone who voted Leave, ever again, whatever their reasons - in the end, you voted with the narrow-minded racists and gave them the support and justification for their vile prejudice. Take responsibility for the increase in racist attacks. You voted with the enemy, ergo you are the enemy.
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I disagree with the last sentence.
 
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